Monday, November 30, 2009

9/11 Conspiracy Theorists Take A Hit - 5

There is a group of expert aviation professionals who have had a website up for several years.

During their careers some of them even flew the aircraft that were purportedly destroyed on 9/11.

A couple of years ago they got the Flight 77 black box data from the NTSB, who had received those black boxes from the FBI, because the Pentagon was a crime scene.

When these aviation experts put the flight data recorder ("black box") data into professional flight simulators (the type used to train professional airline pilots) it did not add up.

For one thing, the data showed Flight 77 at about 400 feet high at the time of impact with the Pentagon (not possible in this universe).

The NTSB would make no comment when the pilots inquired about the discrepancy in the data NTSB said was the official data.

Further perusal of the data indicated that the flight deck door (door to pilot cabin) remained closed during the entire flight. In other words, no one from the passenger section opened the door to get into the cockpit.

Thus, these professionals are concerned that the official story is wrong or that they and/or the NTSB were given the wrong data.

UPDATE: The comments to this post show that some folks do not comprehend the very critical importance of Flight Data Recorders in terms of determining what caused an airliner to crash, what happened on the flight, as well as what did not happen.

Clearly, the best science is used to make sure that these "black boxes" work accurately:
Both the Flight Data Recorder and the Cockpit Voice Recorder have proven to be valuable tools in the accident investigation process. They can provide information that may be difficult or impossible to obtain by other means. When used in conjunction with other information gained in the investigation, the recorders are playing an ever increasing role in determining the Probable Cause of an aircraft accident.
(National Transportation Safety Board). Our ability to believe as well as our inability to believe certain things is a psychological reality which some people have no control over, exclaiming "I could not believe it even if it was true".

If you find yourself saying "I don't believe the Flight Data Recorders" because you have already determined what happened on a flight, you are at the edge of the realm of your capacities of belief, so be careful not to proceed recklessly until you are ready for it.

Like the man said, if "you can't handle the truth" apples, don't deal with it until you can handle it. This is for your own mental health's sake. We do not want anyone who is not qualified to sit on a jury to deal with adult jury material to their demise in any way, shape, or form.


  1. I take it that their alternative story is that 4 white male Christian long term well experienced American pilots were the ones that flew the planes into the Pentagon and the World Trade Center Towers in collusion with 15 other Christian white male hijackers that murdered passengers with box knives. And the security photos that showed the alleged muslim hijackers boarding the flights were all doctored.And this was all a Bush ploy to be set in motion while he was reading a story to children.

  2. Anonymous,

    Like the birther allegations, like politics, and like weather, all 9/11 beliefs are local.

    In other words there are several conspiracy theories, including the official conspiracy theory that the door was opened and hijackers went in that way.

    The conspiracy theory you advance is one of many.

    Like all criminal cases, whodunnit and how it was done is the burden of the prosecutor to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

    All a defense lawyer has to do is raise a reasonable doubt to the official government story; they do not have to show how it happened.

    That is the job of a competent prosecutor.

    If you were from the United States you would realize that, because it is one of our founding principles.

  3. It sounds to me like there is an incredible doubt, since the only evidence presented was from the government, and it shows that the doors to the cockpit remained closed during the entire flight!

    There is no other way into the cockpit so if terrorists did it they must have been dressed as pilots not passengers.

  4. Dredd,
    What is the "defense lawyer" defending against?
    Is she defending against the fact it was muslims?
    Is she defending against the fact that the buildings were destroyed and people were murdered?
    What is this "line of defense" looking to defend against or prove?

  5. Anonymous (Dec 2),

    I figured you had defense lawyers in your country, so I used that analogy.

    Guess not, so here goes again.

    In this country one accused of a crime does not have to put on any defense.

    NONE, nada, zip.

    The government must prove everything beyond a reasonable doubt in the first instance.

    Some people forget that.

    The way it works, if you read the professional pilots report I cited (pilots who have flown the actual aircraft alleged to have hit the Pentagon) they got the data from the government, the NTSB.

    The government data itself shows that the flight was 400 feet higher than the Pentagon at the time of impact, and that the cockpit door had not been opened during the 1.5 hours of flight.

    It is quite reasonable for those pilots (who testify in aviation court cases around the nation) to ask the government why they were given this improper and wrong data.

    They wanted to get data from the NTSB that said the aircraft was at ground level, and that the cockpit door had been opened when terrorists went in to take control, since there is no other way in to the cockpit.

    Do you get their argument yet? They are asking for sensible data, that is all. The right stuff.

    The government could not prove its story with that data they were given so far in other words.

    The black box data given them renders the government story a fairy tale, so they went back to the NTSB to get good data.

    The NTSB said "no comment".

  6. As an engineer, I understand how data is not exact. I don't know why the government would not provide an explanation for faulty data,resetting altimeters or not resetting them could explain that, and I do happen to think some conspiracies take place like the Long Island 747 that "blew up" due to a rupture of the fuel tank (looks like it happened where the missile hit).

    But again,to get back to my point, What is the alleged crime you talk about? Everyone knows almost 3,000 people were murdered, part of the Pentagon was destroyed, the Twin Towers were destroyed, and the plane hit in Pennsylvania.

    So is the crime faulty data about the altitude at the Pentagon?
    Is the crime faulty data about the cocpit door? Perhaps the "closed door" sensor failed if one even exists.

    Is the crime the airplane attitude as it penetrated the Pentagon or the Towers?

    Or is the crime that airplanes were never involved, only explosives, and the same people destroyed the airplanes and the airplane passengers somehow.

    So again, What is the crime you allude to but never mention?

  7. Perhaps a clearer statment using your defense attorney anology:

    You and these pilots appear to be acting as prosecutors.

    Proscecutors have a charge they level against people.

    What are the charges being leveled against the government? All I see so far is an altitude discrepency and a door lock descrepency, which are minor problems.

    The government should provide corrections or explanations to both of those, I agree.

  8. The crime is the killing of the people as you say. The government has described the crime as fact A, B, and C, but as the aviation experts point out, the data does not support that version of what happened.

    Until we know what happened with proper data, we cannot conclude on the matter, at least not without accepting a fantasy.

  9. Anonymous (Dec #3),

    "The government should provide corrections or explanations to both of those, I agree."

    Ok, so they are being "prosecuted" (actually they are just being asked) to give the proper data please.

    And as you say, until they do we do not have to accept their conspiracy theory, right?

  10. Guess I am totally confused. Muslim terrorists killed 3,000 people and we are arguing about an altimeter setting and a faulty door lock indicator proving it was muslim terrorists.

    Is that right?

  11. Anonymous,

    "Guess I am totally confused" ... well, actually I thought you were asking some good questions.

    The only thing you are doing incorrectly is concluding without a factual foundation to support that conclusion.

    You are minimizing something that is impossible as "no big thing". The black box data is the biggest thing in any aircraft disaster and when it shows that the government story is not in accord with the facts, play pretend just will not do the job of a professional.

    When the emperor has no clothes on I am not going to pretend he or she does have clothes on.

    Such pretending would actually be dishonest.

    The only thing we are faulting the government for is giving us story A but giving us facts that support story B, not story A.

    Until we get facts that support story A we can quite legitimately doubt that story A is the real story.

    In our country our forefathers left us some good wisdom about government for us to never forget.

    That is "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely", thus, those in power are the ones that must always prove the facts before we the people are required to believe them.

    We are the jury that decides, the government is not the one that decides.

  12. Correction to a link above:

    "Like the birther allegations, like politics, and like weather, all 9/11 beliefs are local."